tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post4109186499811202425..comments2024-03-18T03:28:36.581-04:00Comments on Shrink Rap: Psychotherapy as a Model for Positive RelationshipsUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger34125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-56926480484704075142013-11-15T20:22:54.597-05:002013-11-15T20:22:54.597-05:00Okay, I will pretend I am sitting in your living r...Okay, I will pretend I am sitting in your living room. ;) I just came across this old post doing a google search but it is something I am struggling with right now. I have been in long-term therapy and I don't believe it is a healthy relationship at all. That's not to say it hasn't helped me enormously but it's also very unrealistic in many ways but I'm not the one writing the books or doing the teaching in school. Clients might make progress but I don't think it comes close to modeling a healthy two-way relationship.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-22822464711980913852012-11-16T13:58:46.571-05:002012-11-16T13:58:46.571-05:00I may have missed something in your post but as a ...I may have missed something in your post but as a long-term client having worked with many therapists my immediate impression from the title was quite different.<br />I don't think my shrink should be my friend - as in the examples you present- but that it offers ME the opportunity to become a person who can have positive relationships. Developing this quality and/or skills is what I work towards (as just part of the process).<br />Currently -honestly, today - I am struggling to confront my counselour with some complaints. Probably not an uncommon therapeutic issue, but for me a huge and important effort.<br /> Yesterday I decided I didn't have to "change" and could just keep letting my complaints percolate. Today, I think there would be a lot of benefit to tell; to "practice," or to "model" a behavior I believe can assist me in my (therapeutic) goal of maintaining "Positive Relationships."<br /> Of course, your perspective is from the other side. I hope my comments aren't repetitive or misplaced. Just felt moved to write.<br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-14208553670577745672012-05-22T19:39:17.462-04:002012-05-22T19:39:17.462-04:00I really think it depends on the dynamic that exis...I really think it depends on the dynamic that exists between the therapist and the patient, as well as the approach taken by the therapist. <br />For patients with severe social difficulties, the therapeutic relationship, even in its 'idealized' form, can serve as an important foundation block to building trust with another person that eventually can be generalized to 'real' two-way relationships. Also, if the therapist takes a more relationship-based humanistic approach, adopting a more open two-way exchange of thoughts and reactions, this can provide a kind of model for real-life exchanges, even if the focus is on the patient. <br />That being said, a lot of therapists err on the side of caution when it comes to examining the ongoing and fluctuating dynamic of the relationship with the patient, which is perfectly justified. As with pretty much everything else in psychotherapy, this is really a sort of 'it depends' scenario based on a number of factors - patient characteristics, therapeutic approach, therapist-patient chemistry, etc.<br />I understand how the view that the therapist is 'putting on a face' can hinder the idea that therapy can bolster future relationships, but none of us show 100% of ourselves 100% of the time. Like every other relationship, it is adapted to the situation and context, which in this case means that the therapist doesn't get to behave in the same manner as they would with a spouse or friend. If the relationship is rooted in sincerity and trust, however, I don't think the therapist is necessarily 'putting on a mask'; rather, he or she is adapting his or her personality and training to the needs of the patient. Is it a 'mask' when we try and focus on happy thoughts and memories when visiting a loved one in the hospital? If so, then we are really wearing some kind of 'mask' most of the time.jesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-65365836987946556442012-05-04T16:04:25.951-04:002012-05-04T16:04:25.951-04:00Sunny,
I'm glad it works for you. I can't ...Sunny,<br />I'm glad it works for you. I can't get into this trust thing and I really do believe they'd rather be anywhere else, just like anyone else.I can't do it. I can let a plumber in to fix a leaky faucet. I don't care if he swears the whole time. At least I know how he feels, I pay him and he leaves. No need for fake smiles and how are you today?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-68604834959172661962012-05-02T13:21:08.507-04:002012-05-02T13:21:08.507-04:00To the last anonymous
I am sorry if you have had d...To the last anonymous<br />I am sorry if you have had doctors that you feel lack sincerity, but I don't feel it is the rule, but the exception. My psychiatrist is now 71 years old, so could have retired years ago if he did not want to be doing what he is doing. Perhaps there are patients who bore him or who he genuinely dislikes, but he has said that he "vets" prospective clients so that he can have fulfilling working relationships. I do feel genuinely cared about by him. Yes, he is a trained professional and I am paying him, but he's not faking his care and concern. Just suppose, anyway, that you are right, and psychiatrists would rather be on vacation than helping patients. If they can help you understand yourself, help change the way you interact in the world, and help change your life for the better, what does it matter? It is supposed to be a supportive professional relationship, not a marriage. I don't think it is all about "telling this person all sorts of things" and having the act of telling result in "feeling better". One goal in the "telling" is to discover patterns of behavior that need to be changed, discover ways to work on or leave relationships that are not serving us, and to become more in touch with who we are as a person and use that to guide future directions. I have made personal progress with my psychiatrist that just would not have happened any other way. At the end of the day, that is what counts, not how he feels about it.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-62067786348238250932012-05-02T11:22:04.754-04:002012-05-02T11:22:04.754-04:00If I go for a colonoscopy, I guess that qualifies ...If I go for a colonoscopy, I guess that qualifies as revealing and intimate but since the doctors and nurses are dressed, it doesn't increase my sense of trust or of feeling that there is a relationship. Therapy feels the same way. If I reveals something that I have not revealed to anyone else I don't end up feeling safer about other relationships. I left because it felt like, sure I could tell this person all sorts of things but it wasn't making me feel better and it did not give me any greater faith in humanity. I also really believe, and have seen, that doctors respond in a caring way but like anyone else, they would rather be on vacation than listening to patients. They also say Oh hell, its Monday morning.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-29571648467165458622012-05-02T10:28:54.676-04:002012-05-02T10:28:54.676-04:00Elbee
I like your statement. I feel it reflects m...Elbee<br />I like your statement. I feel it reflects my relationship with my psychiatrist.<br /><br />I haven't had Sarebear and Sideways Shrink's experience of having a "broken place" with my psychiatrist or feeling extreme anger towards him. Perhaps I don't need that or perhaps I have not gotten there yet. What I have been able to do is disclose things about myself that I have not shared before. In turn he has seen things I have not been aware of, so there's been growth in self-awareness.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-62023685275126328602012-05-02T01:12:49.050-04:002012-05-02T01:12:49.050-04:00My relationship with my therapist (ideally) teache...My relationship with my therapist (ideally) teaches me about trusting other people even when you reveal yourself for who you really are (intimacy).Elbeenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-13848103733128082542012-05-02T00:49:44.618-04:002012-05-02T00:49:44.618-04:00Anonymous,
I like people and it rarely happens tha...Anonymous,<br />I like people and it rarely happens that a patient I have "screened" is someone I end up feeling is not a good match for me. Sheldon Kopp, a therapist who was influenced by Carl Rogers and Buddhism talked about the whole first session almost as a screening session. I endeavor to engage people/patients with two basic premises: I accept them, but I am also present and spending my life/time with the person doing this activity. You can't really pay someone to accept you, so I screen people so I can be present in the way that the endeavor of acceptance requires. <br />If, I felt I was unable to help a patient for some reason, I would talk to them about who I felt could better help them. It would not be and has never been because I did not like them or we were not a match personally. <br />The reality is that people leave their shrinks far more that their shrinks fire them. That is honesty from me. <br />This is a good waking up song and less schmaltzy Billy Joel:<br /><br />It seems such a waste of time<br />If that's what it's all about<br />If that's movin' up then I'm movin' out.<br /><br />You should never argue with a crazy mind<br />You oughta know by now<br />You can pay Uncle Sam with the overtime<br />Is that all you get for your money?<br /><br />It seems such a waste of time<br />If that's what it's all about<br />Good luck movin' up cause I'm movin' out.Sideways Shrinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04104276227611510870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-18104893170726763492012-05-01T22:26:30.532-04:002012-05-01T22:26:30.532-04:00.... is such a lonely word.
Everyone is so untrue........ is such a lonely word.<br />Everyone is so untrue.<br />Honesty is hardly ever heard.<br />And mostly what I need from you.<br /><br />I can always find someone<br />to say they sympathize.<br />If I wear my heart out on my sleeve.<br />But I don't want some pretty face<br />to tell me pretty lies.<br />All I want is someone to believe. <br /><br />I used to like that song a long time ago. It was good to get drunk to.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-16710235438272182842012-05-01T19:24:31.449-04:002012-05-01T19:24:31.449-04:00Honesty.Honesty.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-3966958426039441632012-05-01T16:40:20.154-04:002012-05-01T16:40:20.154-04:00Sideways,
What happens if your pre screening lets...Sideways,<br /><br />What happens if your pre screening lets through a patient who you don't feel you don't feel is a good match/don't like working with? If they don't quit on their own, do you get rid of them as in refer them out or drop hints? I don't mean patients who are abusive to you or don't pay their bills.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-683163961836787062012-05-01T13:59:56.120-04:002012-05-01T13:59:56.120-04:00Thank you, SS. It was thoughtful of you to remark...Thank you, SS. It was thoughtful of you to remark on my experince this way.<br /><br />A new, important rule for us, the therapeutic relationship, came out of this experience, as well as other benefits as you say! I also had a hidden, subconscious source of anger and other emotions that caused the anger, at him duing that period, that took some psychological detective work to figure out; surprisingly, I figured much ofit out myself, but theproceess of doing so was prompted but things I'd said and he'd responded to during therapy in the previous couple months. We ofcourse exploed this whenI shared my discoveries.<br /><br />It was . . . delightful . . .and, fulfilling . . . and, efficacious . . . and other things, to learn that there's responses other than catastrophizing during distressin relationships, that may work (depending on the willinness and motivaton and communication of the other involved party, of course). <br /><br />So I guess owthat I've realized these things, I come down on te side of, what he did there with m DOES indeed model healthy relationsip skills; there's no guarantee they'll work with everbody, but they are good to have. It also modeled the contrast between my catastrophizing/extree distress and a moe realistic, productive, pragmatic, positive, healtier view of "broken" relationships or relationship speed bumps.<br /><br />Ugh, if I'm having troble affoding a new keyboard, I can't justify donatingto the NAMI walk. Sorry guys! It won't keep up with my 90wpm typing nymore.Sarebearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208596053319110470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-73239916671715766242012-05-01T12:14:30.024-04:002012-05-01T12:14:30.024-04:00Sarebear
That you have been able to continue past ...Sarebear<br />That you have been able to continue past a "broken" place with a therapist shows real strength on your part. It shows that you were in what is called the working phase of therapy and not just borrowing ego strength from your shrink. You were able to maintain yourself while the relationship was in confusion and was not sustaining you. You could see it through to the other side and undoubtedly learned something about yourself in that process.<br /><br />"Anonymous", I think, misunderstands the key ingredient to reworking parent-child relationships through intensive psychotherapy. Certainly, the therapist must provide a safe environment, but the therapy patient, or analysand, must let go of their fear of being rejected by the shrink as "crazy" or "neurotic" or "wacko" for whatever they say. The patient must be well enough, but desperate enough to actual attach onto the therapist a whole bunch of feelings that are really about about someone else--for me, it was my mother, my father, my husband. Because I knew my analyst was a mother of 3 children I could share with her my terror of whether I should get pregnant, what kind of mother I would be (as crazy as my own?). My analyst never answered the questions exactly except with questions, but my honesty, born out of desperation (medications did not work for me) I did a lot of work on my primary relationships. <br /><br />Sitting on both sides of the couch/leather chair. I believe the power of therapy is sitting on the couch. Sure, the person in the chair can mess it up, but as a person who wants to make the relationship work because I like to see change (and no one person makes my income) I try to pre-screen for patients who I will work well with and vice verse. However cynical someone might be, no shrink wants to bring a new patient in for a couple of new patient visits if it seems that it will not work out--particularly as prescribers. There are plenty of voice mails that are left each week to sort through. <br /><br />Finding the right patient match is not usually so hard. Add in some student loans and overhead and psychiatry is not exactly a money making endeavor......Sideways Shrinkhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04104276227611510870noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-342365213818048992012-04-30T23:23:57.856-04:002012-04-30T23:23:57.856-04:00There is a friendship there, that exists merely in...There is a friendship there, that exists merely in the hour I am there for therapy each week. I have picked up and remembered little snippets that my therapist has shared with me about their personal life. It is a nice idea to think that they have a "perfect life" with all of the answers outside of therapy, but let's get real - they don't. So I will live in la-la land and pretend they live this absolutely perfect/happy life and put into practice everything they preach to me.<br /><br />What have I learned about relationships in general in therapy? Once I really started to learn - put the pieces together about the whole narcissism/codependency concept and how it related to the relationships in my life, it was a huge breakthrough. And my therapist sat back in their chair and listened to me connect the dots... dots they had given me 6 months earlier but didn't mean much at the time and I couldn't conceptualize it. That's a great feeling - and that's what I have learned.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-59375051459051877702012-04-30T22:01:14.421-04:002012-04-30T22:01:14.421-04:00Psychotherapy can be viewed as a model relationshi...Psychotherapy can be viewed as a model relationship in that your flaws are accepted, you can have a close relationship to someone without them expecting you to put out, and that person isn't going to hit you up for drug money. Atleast this is how therapy should be going - I've heard a horror story or two.<br /><br />Being a therapist gives me the kitten and marshmallow feeling. Knowing my therapist likes her job also gives me the kitten and marshmallow feeling, especially considering what a pain in the ass I can be. I want a print of that picture to put in my future office, by the way. Or cubicle, because with my luck I'll find myself at an agency that has communal therapy rooms after graduation.<br /><br />Therapist/client is one of several types of relationships we have. My relationship with my kid, for instance, is quite a bit different than my relationship with my hairdresser. Therapy can be a good training ground for learning boundaries, communication, empathy, and so forth. But it's not remotely like any other relationship you're going to have.<br /><br />Therapist/client is probably the weirdest relationship of them all - particularly if your therapist is a psychiatrist, seeing as that keeping private life under lock and key seems to be pounded into psych residents' heads (Though I imagine some of you psychiatrist folks ease up after a few years). Therapist says little, you spill your guts about stuff you're embarrassed to even know about yourself, much less someone else knowing said stuff. Plus you pay them. Hm. I feel like I'm starting to describe sex work...<br /><br />Kidding, of course.Sophianoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-4204297178638159472012-04-30T14:49:28.129-04:002012-04-30T14:49:28.129-04:00Sunny, thank you very much. That is very thoughtf...Sunny, thank you very much. That is very thoughtful, kind, and means alot to me that you would take the time to and want to convey your thoughts and information to me.<br /><br />The Newcomers groups sound interesting, I'll have to look into that! I've also looked up groups that match my interests on Meetup.com or something I forget, like knitting, book clubs, board game clubs, etc., although most are down in Salt Lake.Sarebearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208596053319110470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-28422567780440921862012-04-30T10:28:41.150-04:002012-04-30T10:28:41.150-04:00Sarebear
Your therapist sounds good. I am glad tha...Sarebear<br />Your therapist sounds good. I am glad that worked out and glad your husband is motivated to heal your relationship with him. That is terrific.<br /><br />Regarding MIL:<br />Some people are toxic and abusive and don't belong in our lives. I don't think it is possible to fix all relationships with all people. My psychiatrist urged me to get rid of relationships where I was being used and abused and reach out to make new, healthier relationships. <br /><br />I did get rid of the unhealthy relationships. I have made new friends, and am still working on that. I work on not just finding good friends, but being one. <br /><br />I realize you are rather stuck with your MIL, but that does not mean she has to be your friend. Consider that it may be unhealthy for you to have a close relationship with your MIL. She sounds pretty negative to me with the little you are sharing. That's a relationship in which you'd want to stick to talking about the weather and how pretty her house looks today and how great the food is that she prepared, when you must see her. She does not have to understand you or ever love or like you, and vice versa. It is like trying to be friends with a rattlesnake.<br /><br />There are Newcomers groups all over the USA who welcome people wanting to expand their network of friends. Most are women and many are not new to the area, but women wanting to meet other women. I joined my local Newcomers group, which has many (mostly free!) activities each month. There's book discussion group, a documentary group, bridge playing, walking, bunko, coffee groups, out-to-dinner, out-to-movie, etc. I found a lot of wonderful women. This was way better for me than continuing in relationships in which I was the continuing the abuse of childhood. There are other ways to meet people: volunteer work, church, clubs centered on an interest. Each person needs to find what works.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-13391974872587871612012-04-30T03:10:54.385-04:002012-04-30T03:10:54.385-04:00Woops, I must add, that the "broken" asp...Woops, I must add, that the "broken" aspect to my marriage recently, actually shows me that sometimes people ARE willing to work on things, and stuff. (It still amazes me though.) Then again, he wouldn't be like that if he didn't have some motivation to be like that.<br /><br />I guess I did my ole disqualifying the postive in forgetting that BIG example.Sarebearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208596053319110470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-32287989845158445582012-04-30T03:08:21.206-04:002012-04-30T03:08:21.206-04:00I haven't read the comments yet, but I see you...I haven't read the comments yet, but I see your points. I don't think the whole relationship models healthy relationship, but I think at times depending what you are discussing, he/she can model a healthier way of relating, a healthier . . . outcome? to something you fear in your daily relationships.<br /><br />My example should illustrate:<br /><br />There came a point in our theraepeutic relationship where I felt it was broken. I didn't see how it could become unbroken, but I kept going anyway. Through time, effort on both our parts, and working through the relationship issues, it became unbroken. He specifically said once we were in a better place again, that he was hoping his modeling of how one works through feeling like a relationship is in distress, towards healing that relationship, would help me in the future should I feel broken relationships with othes . . . that I would hopefully be less likely to catastrophize when/if such things happen in my regular relationhips.<br /><br />I could see that, it made sense to me.<br /><br />On the other hand, with your post and many of the points it raises in mind, I wonder how motivated a person I feel broken with would be to fix things, to work through the pain, to try to see the other's point of view, would be. It's been my experince that people I tend to feel broken with don't seem to feel any desire whatsoever to try to understand the other person, their point of view, their feelings.<br /><br />AND, my therapist has seen this with my relationship with my MIL. She's given up on me, on our relationship. She still talks to me if I'm around her, orshe calls us for some other reason (never for a reason that's about us), but there's no effort on her part to relate to me, anymore. In my effrts to work on this relationhip, we even got to the point where she said she'd given up on me, or the relationship, or something. That HURTS, deeply. After about a decade of doing my best to try to understand her, even if I didn'agree with her, an try to improve our relationship, she just gves up. Even before she gave up, she years befre had reachd a point where she'd try to find out what I was feeling, but then would shut down and not contribute her point of vew or perspective, which isn't too many steps remved from giving up . . makes i real hard t understand someone if they won't communicate .. . I did nothing BUT try with her, and see what I got.<br /><br />You can't fix some things. So whatyou say about how the therapist is motivated to work on things with you (did you say that I forget lol), and stuff, makes me wonder if he can EVER realistically model how healthy relationships work; then again, if it is a healthy relationship, the other person would have some motivation for working on things with you . .<br /><br />So maybe he can model some things, for relating with somewhat healthy to healthy people, or for howto learn to let stff from toxic people bounce offof you (yeah, black and white nd labeling there) .. . but it takes two to tango, and sometimes the other person won't tango. They won't even line dance.Sarebearhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09208596053319110470noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-14262991561782731412012-04-30T01:31:16.566-04:002012-04-30T01:31:16.566-04:00speaking of ADD, how do therapists with ADD who ar...speaking of ADD, how do therapists with ADD who are excellent at the "skills" sit still through a day of hourlong sessions?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-85726285174055498832012-04-29T22:54:43.015-04:002012-04-29T22:54:43.015-04:00I sometimes wonder what my therapist is like in &q...I sometimes wonder what my therapist is like in "real life." What her thoughts, emotions, opinions are about various topics.<br />But this curiosity is fleeting because I really don't want to know these things. I don't need to know this information for her to help me. <br />(Now if she was a fundamentalist Christian Republican there would be a problem with us doing therapy together, but I am fairly confident she is a Jewish Democrat who once had a habit of going to yoga classes.)<br /><br />I have had friends who are social workers and have seen first hand just because someone is a therapist does not mean they are mentally sound. Not by a long shot.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-64225893475922694522012-04-29T22:14:23.428-04:002012-04-29T22:14:23.428-04:00Thanks, but I feel pretty lucky at this point. I s...Thanks, but I feel pretty lucky at this point. I started with my psychiatrist 6 years ago and about 6 months ago, my psychiatrist gave me the option of ending therapy. I have been going less frequently since then, but have not really ended. I have made a huge amount of progress, but I just don't think I will ever be past it totally. I wasn't aware I had a problem when I started except that I had a psychotic episode (with hospitalization) at age 54, which was kind of a hint that something was wrong. It took some time before my psychiatrist was able to demonstrate to me what my problem is. I did not think I had a problem. That was a huge step. My psychiatrist is terrific. I couldn't ask for better help. I am much more in touch now than when I started. <br /><br />My question above really is asking what else can I do to be proactive about getting in touch with my feelings and feeling my feelings in the moment as I go along rather than have an emotion "bomb" go off after many months of few or no feelings.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-91343882117515197752012-04-29T21:32:25.108-04:002012-04-29T21:32:25.108-04:00@sunny: sorry about the childhood abuse. Hope ther...@sunny: sorry about the childhood abuse. Hope therapy works out.Janehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06030949818467743750noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-26666124.post-16191094045432255422012-04-29T19:56:51.804-04:002012-04-29T19:56:51.804-04:00I think my psychiatrist called it dissociation; de...I think my psychiatrist called it dissociation; detachment from emotions as a result of childhood abuse. The result is being unable to identify or express feelings; in particular, the negative feelings like anger, sadness, hurt, fear, shame. Another result is a high tolerance for emotional pain. My psychiatrist has painstakingly pointed out in situation after situation I have described, what he feels in reaction to the situation to contrast with my frequent lack of an emotional response or demonstration of an emotional response. I have tried to get in touch with my feelings. I am almost 61, so doubt I could live long enough to be completely over this, but I would like to make progress continuously.Sunny CAhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11451116932556227816noreply@blogger.com